SPOILER ALERT: This story sort of contains spoilers from Part 3 of the Season 19 reunion of “The Real Housewives of Orange County,” but it’s not really that kind of article.
Heather Dubrow — a veteran cast member on “The Real Housewives of Orange County” — had relatively smooth sailing during show’s 19th season, when several of her fellow castmates were lost at sea. The season concluded Thursday night with Part 3 of its reunion episodes.
The season got off to a fraught, complicated start when Katie Ginella, in her sophomore season on the show, was caught in a number of contradictory statements; was exposed by Tamra Judge for having recorded Shannon Beador during the previous season without her permission and appeared to have had multiple points of contact with Bravo content creators, to whom she’d allegedly gossiped. Under scrutiny, Ginella couldn’t keep her stories straight, and after failing a lie detector test with flying colors, stopped filming with the cast entirely about halfway through the season until the recent reunion episodes.
That was the first mess. The second one was that Judge quit the show on camera a number of times, so upset was she about her close friend and “Two Ts in a Pod” podcast co-host, Teddi Mellencamp, who was facing a dire diagnosis from Stage 4 melanoma. (In wonderful news, Mellencamp told Variety at BravoCon on Nov. 14 that, because of immunotherapy, there is currently no cancer in her body.)
Neither of those two controversies directly affected Dubrow, even though she has been close with Judge for years, and had argued with Ginella during Season 18. She was involved, of course, but not in the direct line of fire in either of these conflagrations.
Heather Dubrow at “The Real Housewives of Orange County” Season 19 reunion
Courtesy of Trae Patton/Bravo
The third flare-up, however, did directly affect Dubrow, who is the mother of three queer children and has made it her life’s work to be a fundraiser, an ally and an advocate. In their last dinner of Season 19 filmed for the show’s finale, during an otherwise hilarious trip to Amsterdam, Gina Kirschenheiter brought up the subject of castmate Gretchen Rossi’s problematic Instagram likes. Judge had shown Kirschenheiter the posts in the weeks before, and Kirschenheiter wanted Rossi to explain them.
Rossi’s alleged online behavior — Variety is saying “alleged,” having not seen these posts first-hand — have been shared widely on the internet since at least April 2023, when a famous thread on Twitter (yes, it was still Twitter then!) screenshotted right-wing Instagram posts that appear to have been liked by Rossi’s account. The posts were anti-abortion, anti-vaccine, pro-election denial, pro-Trump, and perhaps most relevant to the Bravo audience, homophobic and transphobic. These posts were not a secret, and had a resurgence after Variety broke the news in January of this year that Rossi would return to “RHOC” as a friend of the cast.
Dubrow had fire in her eyes during the finale dinner, as she made it clear to Rossi that their friendship was on the line. Remembering it during an interview at BravoCon, Dubrow says she got “chills” at the mention of the dinner. She adds, with a shudder, “Like, it was terrible!”
In Part 3 of the reunion episodes of “The Real Housewives of Orange County,” Rossi does seek to explain herself (while also blaming Judge, her eternal enemy). Rossi says “there’s no excuse for liking anything that has any sort of offensive sentiment,” and denounces “anything that seems homophobic or transphobic or anything like that.” She blames “mindlessly” scrolling at night, and not realizing what she was hitting like on in what looks to be a completely redpilled algorithm. Rossi says, and Judge confirms, that she’s unfollowed those accounts, and almost fully apologizes, but does use “if” and “maybe.” “I gravely apologize if I liked something that was offensive or something like that,” Rossi says. “Maybe that’s my mistake.”
Dubrow starred on “RHOC” from Seasons 7 through 11, and then returned for Season 16. During Season 19, as previously mentioned, she mostly stayed above the fray — literally above, as she watched the chaos from her penthouse apartment in Los Angeles, which she shares with her husband, Terry, and their children.
From BravoCon, Dubrow shares how her Season 19 storyline about coming a place of peace with her late father came to be, her regrets about how the Katie Ginella mess unfolded, her dislike of having “extraneous” off-camera outside forces affecting the cast’s relationships — and where she stands with Gretchen Rossi after that massive fight.
I feel like you had a good season. Does it feel that way to you?
You know, it’s funny because Andy said to me the first time I went on “Watch What Happens Live” this season, he said, “I just love you this season — you’re having such a great season.” I was like, “Really?” I hadn’t thought about it.
But when I did sit down to think about it, I thought every season since I came back, someone is lying about me, right? I came back, and it was Noella saying I’d beaten up the crew, and then all the girls were coming after me for spreading Shannon’s personal business — which I was exonerated from! And then we had Katie. Every season, it’s been something. This year I felt like I could just be myself. Which I enjoyed!
Courtesy of Casey Durkin/Bravo
You also had the very personal storyline about your dad. When was it that he died?
He died like eight years ago. And the question is, why now?
It is!
I didn’t intend like, [deepens voice] “… and this season I’m going to talk about …” — I really didn’t. My mom is very sensitive to these things, and I never want to hurt her. So it’s a hard line to walk. But it was so germane to what was going on with Tamra that it struck me. Because everyone’s always like, “You’re scared of her,” or, “Why do you that?”
And I’m like, I’m used to complicated people; I’ve grown up with complicated people. And I guess I’m OK with it, because I know it, right? So I started thinking about it, and I thought, “Oh, this is like my dad.” I remember talking to my sister about it, and I thought, “Should I say something?” I went, eh, yeah, I’m gonna talk about it.
And that’s really how it came up? Because Tamra Judge was triggering you in that way?
Yes! Absolutely. And every time my dad got brought up, I thought, who cares? I don’t need to heal anything. But I have to say, taking the ashes to Amsterdam, seeing my parents’ apartment — by the way, how weird was it?
I got so many messages that, yeah, the producers set that up. I’m like, listen, I didn’t put that paparazzi on the street of Beverly Hills. I had no idea where we were going — we were driving a circle! I didn’t call the paparazzi in the first place. And we didn’t know that this guy was going to be there. So it was so special. And when I walked in the apartment, and saw my mom’s wallpaper was still on the wall, I went, “That is so cool.”
I felt like it was like my dad opening the door for us. So when I actually spread the ashes, I really felt like a weight was lifted.
It was very moving.
Thanks! I didn’t realize how important it would feel.
Courtesy of Griffin Nagel/Bravo
Switching topics! The Kate Ginella stuff goes bad for her from Episode 1, when she digs herself into a terrible hole of seeming untruths and misleading statements. What was that like to watch as someone who is a veteran in this field?
So here’s the thing. Obviously, when we’re filming, you don’t have all the information. You only know what you see and what you hear directly, or else it’s hearsay and you’re not really sure. So when the audience is watching it, they have the benefit of hearing more conversations and putting it together a little bit differently. For every 30 hours we film, 20 minutes makes it to the air, right? I think the algorithm. You can’t show everything.
This season in particular, so many things happened off-camera with these extraneous people that I found a lot of it very confusing. I think the audience got confused. This season with me and Katie, I really didn’t have any big issues. I tried to help her a bit in some group settings, but I couldn’t stop — and I don’t think anyone could have stopped — the tidal wave.
But I do want to say, no one ever called me and said, “Will you not film with her anymore?” No one ever said that.
Do you understand exactly how it happened that she stopped filming midseason?
No. I don’t. That’s above my pay grade. I can only speak for myself, but if any of us individually have the power to stop someone from filming — I’ve never heard of our cast, or any cast, getting together and saying we won’t do this. That didn’t happen.
As someone who’s been on the show for as long as you have been, before the Bravoverse was its own economy and there were all these content creators, or “bloggers,” as Katie would say, were factored in. These things are happening off camera. What do you think about that?
I think it’s terrible. I think it’s terrible!
I started the show when my youngest child was nine months old, and he’s turning 15. And there used to be a code on the show, a very clear code: no careers, no kids. It was an unspoken rule. Everyone abided by it, and it was appropriate. Because our show is about conflict and resolution between our group. Not about our children, not about our businesses. No one should be trying to hurt someone’s way to earn a living, and certainly not about ancillary people that have nothing to do with our friend group.
The conflict and resolution is about us and our friendships. And we need to go back to that. And I think to your point, with these layers of bloggers, social media, recap people — all these different things, they add so many layers to the show. Like, the Deux Mois, and people trying to find out things and what’s really happening. We need to go back to our roots.
It can go really right, like with “Salt Lake City” and the unmasking of Reality Von Tease, but usually fighting about things that happen on the internet is not good for the show.
You want to know why it worked, I think? I think because they didn’t tell anyone. So it was a surprise for the audience, the reveal of what actually happened and who it was.
I don’t know any bloggers — I don’t have those sort of relationships. But I think people talk and they give out information, and sometimes they don’t mean to. I don’t think it’s all the time meant to be a bad thing. But it ruins the show.
I love that all these people have come back, and it’s nostalgic. And I love that Vicki’s coming back — I think it’s great. But to me, we can’t go backwards. We have to go forwards.
Tamra Judge, Heather Dubrow
Courtesy of Griffin Nagel/Bravo
And you stuck by Tamra this season when she was digging her own grave. Can you talk about that a little bit?
Yeah, you know, it’s a tough place to be when you see your friend making decisions and saying things that you don’t agree with. Tamra was in a weird place this year, with everything that going on with Teddi and whatnot. She’s my friend. I’m not going to desert her because I don’t agree with her. But I just really tried to be very vocal with her at every turn, and she was not happy with me for a lot of it.
And I made it clear, look, we are friends, but that doesn’t mean blind loyalty, and it doesn’t mean I have to agree with everything that you’re doing. And you have to appreciate that as a friend.
With Katie, was it a relief when she stopped filming with you all?
No! The whole thing is bizarre. Look, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. We work best when everyone is doing great and on fire and a great cast member. So it’s disappointing. And you know, she’s a pretty girl, she’s got a nice family, her backstory is interesting. I wish she had come in differently.
Are you expecting there to be cast changes next season?
It wouldn’t surprise me if there were cast changes.
OK, let’s talk about the Gretchen Instagram stuff. In the third episode of the reunion, you do seem to come to a kind of resolution with her. But tell me about that dinner on the last night in Amsterdam, and what that was like.
I mean, I have chills, right when you said that. Like, it was terrible! I’ve known Gretchen as long as I’ve known Tamra. And she’s always been incredibly kind to me, to my family. I’ve never heard her say anything against the LGBTQIA+ community. She has friends in the community.
She liked those posts, though.
But she liked the posts. And maybe she didn’t like all of them? But I said to her, and I don’t know if this made it into the episode, like, “Terry’s for you page is cats. Mine is, I like to watch people wrap presents and things like that. But when you follow that many hate accounts, your algorithm has got to be showing you terrible things. And so how do you not notice that?”
And look, there were other posts that she liked outside of the queer community that I also don’t agree with. But you know, everyone’s entitled to their opinions on things, but when someone starts calling it a lifestyle choice being gay — it’s tough!
Here’s how it seems from the outside: In her years off the show, Gretchen was positioning herself as a MAHA, MAGA mom influencer. And then she came back to a very LGBTQ+-friendly show and network, and had to row all the way back. Had you heard and seen those things about her in her years off the show?
Yes. I had.
Were you concerned about something like this happening on camera?
No. I didn’t think it would come on the show.
Really?
No, I didn’t. This is just the reality of the world, and it’s certainly a reality in a very conservative Orange County. But how lucky am I to be able to be a long-standing cast member and be able to show my really normal family, and start conversations in other people’s families. I’ve been able to use the platform for that. And it makes me so happy.
It’s not my job to fix people. Because I can’t. But what is my job as a mother and a human and someone with a platform is to be a great ally and a great parent. And react to what I’m told. And I feel like I did a good job with that.
Where do you stand with Gretchen now?
I mean, what I said to her at the reunion is exactly what I said to you: You’ve always been kind to us. I can’t imagine what your for you page looks like, but I hope you use this. Because not just me and my family, but your other friends in the community — this is very upsetting to all of us. So I hope that she takes this moment to really look at what she’s liking and posting.
When Tamra says, why is when I brought this up worse than the fact that she liked those posts — that’s really the nut of it to me. Of course, Tamra had this ammo in her back pocket and was waiting to use it. That’s the show, right?
Right. But it shouldn’t be.
But people are always shoring up information, and figuring out when to deploy it.
Well, that’s the whole thing. You don’t want it to be a storyline. But if it’s true, it needs to be addressed.
Here’s what was OK with me. As hard as all that was, our show is about starting conversations, right? It’s a watercooler show. Even though I don’t like it, and I know she’s so upset about what happened, and really feels like that is not who she is, we’re all talking about it.
And wouldn’t it be great if we could just really open people’s eyes and they could see that we’re all humans, and it’s biology? And let’s give each other some grace.
This interview has been edited and condensed.
